102 replies to this topic

[ZeRoSkIlL]

^ for a part I do agree with you.
here in the Netherlands we do have many many immigrants also (on such a tiny population as we have, nearly 1/3 already are immigrants), and it IS annoying when even after they have been living here for 10 years you simply cannot exchange the most simple things with them because they don't speak the language (nor English, nor German, nor French or Spanish, but only eastern languages that I don't speak). Goes mostly for elderly people, as they don't pick up languages as easily as younger ones....
On the other hand I always think: if our government -on which we all do have an influence, as we are a democratic country - allows immigrants to come and live here, for whatever reason (can be selfish because we need the working hands, can be for humane reasons) this government, and so we all, also do have the obligation to help these people to master their new language.......

How many languages do you master, Z?
I fully understand your irritation and recognise it, but still,
Suppose that to earn a living for yourself and your family, or because of human right issues, you had to go living in, let's say, Morocco, with an Arabian language and Arabian script........how would you feel if everyone just said "he should have learned the language before he came here........" ? And if nobody would give you any help on mastering it ?(apart from the really different things like completely other norms, religions, ways of living, ways of being socially accepted, etc. etc....).

So, i'm trying to do my little part by giving Dutch lessons to elderly immigrants here, via volunteer work.

To everyone, please think about this one: "If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem....."


Btw, what are "flip flops" ??

Emergo

Flip-flops are sandals, they are usually flat bottom shoes with a single strap that cover just above your toes and attaches to the side and in between the big toe and second toe.

As for the linguistic comment, I agree with you - 100%. I believe that the citizens are fed up with all the people taking their jobs, and not making any effort to communicate.

My neighborhood, the cluster of houses in my area, is full of Koreans and other Asian-Americans who have absolutely nothing to do with their white neighbors. It just makes me mad how they almost seem afraid of us.The most I've seen is some of the kind elderly Asian folk cheer me on while I'm taking a run through my area, "You so good! Your legs so strong!". But hey, it's a start. Plus, my legs are so strong. XP

I know English, Spanish on a 3rd or 4th grade level, and a splash of Japanese. I don't know the Japanese script, but I would like to learn. I would like to learn European languages, as well.

Knowing the United States, we draw many immigrants who attracted to the job opportunity, but the amount of Mexican-immigrants are astounding. Everyone should welcome the new people, but as I said, citizens think they overstay their welcome and not apply for green cards or official citizenship. My neighborhood, the cluster of houses in my area, is full of Koreans and other Asian-Americans who have absolutely nothing to do with their white neighbors. It just makes me mad how they almost seem afraid of us.

Do you have any people around you like this?

Now off to study! *Awaaaaaaay!*

- Z

Edited by ZeRoSkIlL, 23 May 2007 - 01:05 AM.

[wabigbear]

I think one also needs to recognize that many immigrant groups come from countries that have a very homogenous population, where family/group connections are much more important than in the USA. Many of these cultures are very tight-knit, and people are also much more reserved and conservative in public than many Americans. Your statement makes it seem that either you look down on them for not adopting the more wide-open style we're used to, or that you suspect they feel they are too good to 'mix' with everyone else. I doubt they are 'afraid' of their neighbors, but more likely wish to stick with their own values and traditions.



As for speaking english, no one is asking you to learn anything, the use of other languages other than english is meant to help those who immigrated here, not to force you to speak theirs. As an American who lives overseas I can tell you right now that while english is taught to many people, being able to function using english is something completely different. It's extremely difficult to become fluent in a language that no one else around you speaks,



On the flip side I know of many Americans who come down to Brazil to visit and who don't even bother to learn how to say "Thank You" in portuguese (yes, it's portuguese...I've met gringoes here who are shocked that no one understands their high school spanish and they didn't even know it's a completely different language spoken here). In fact I once was chatting with a couple visiting Brazil and asked then how they liked it here. They said it was really nice and the people were so friendly, and there was so much they didn't have time to see in their short visit. I asked if they planned to ccome back again soon, and they replied that they would, but only once more Brazilians learned to speak english...they hadn't bothered learning a single bit of portuguese before they traveled here, and expected the locals to cater to THEIR needs.



It's a two-way street.

[Sambo]

I had Korean neighbors for almost 5 years, and we didn't speak to each other for the first few months. They were an interesting family. The father, his mother and his sister, his wife and their two kids. Him and his kids were the only ones who were conversational in English. The sister & wife learned to be over time, but the mother probably learned only a couple dozen words. She didn't need to. She was the family elder and no one expected her to change for them. Although they were respectful of her, they reminded her that this was not her old country and she was not the decision maker simply because of her age. It was the persons working and paying the bills that were the decision makers.

There were obvious cultural differences to be sure - but we had more in common than not. He had a boat (20 foot cruiser) and he would go sea fishing three or four times a year. Had to pour a concrete pad addition to the driveway and side of the house to store the boat & trailer. He would often have his catch hanging on the clothesline drying in the sun. What was interesting was when they had ceramic urns of kim chee fermenting in the back yard...

The mother was the gardener, and it was amazing how much she could grow in such small spaces. Every summer for a few weeks their driveway was unusable because she had it entirely covered in red chilies drying in the sun. She would be out there nearly 24/7 turning them every hour or so, relaxing in between squatted in the shade smoking home rolled cigarettes. She must have been 80 or so, and skin like leather. You could tell she had a hard life in the sun.

There were interesting differences with the kids as well. They were much more like a 1950's family in that regard. When their kids were out playing, it was assumed that any adult in the neighborhood was in charge and could tell them what to do or scold them for misbehavior. Something that just is not done with today's uptight families and their precious can-do-no-wrong children. Their kids were great, loved to share everything, and were always respectful. It was hard not to like having them around.

We had some interesting times - mostly all good. Replacing a common fence wasn't the best of experiences, but wasn't bad. When they got a puppy for the kids - that was interesting. Over the first couple months, it grew fast and fat. It got a bowl of rice every day along with its kibble. They told us it was stuffing to sweeten the meat when grilled. You should have seen my wife's face. It took her every bit of ten minutes of conversation to realize they were having sport with her - they had no plans to eat the dog. I had the hardest time not laughing - but I would have paid dearly...

They were some of the best neighbors I ever had, and missed them when we moved.

[kagetachikoma]

People, just people.

[dcornel]

I live in Toronto, which is supposedly the most multicultural city (by percentage/whole) in the world. I get angry at different groups of people all the time. I've always believed that we should be grateful for the hand that feeds us. This includes ourselves and our health, our families, our friends, our gods (if we have one), our world, our neighbors and our country. These are all factors of who we are.
Add to that a heigtened sense of economic segragation perpetuated by relentless marketing, and it is hard to know what to fit into, or what hand it is that feeds you; or worse, am I getting my fair share.
So people who are afraid tend to group together. This creates a false sense of hope and strength, and more often than not, perpetuates an us/they society.
People seem to be so tired and stressed these days, that sometimes I think they join groups and perpetuate that group's status, just because it is easier to mimic others in action than to strive to be a who they really are. (That would take work)
So people band together, hate others, simplify thier interests to fit in, change their beliefs, stop working on themselves, and in the end create copious amounts of pointless stereotypes[u] based on colour, media, culture, language, money, age, ect....

I like that Toronto has people from all over. I don't want them to ever forget where they came from, nomatter how long their families have been here. However, it is CAME FROM!!!!! THIS IS A NEW COUNTRY FOR ALL OF US (even the natives came from somewhere else, just a lot longer ago). It is however a culture that has been built on values and achievements, and HISTORY (much like any other culture) All of that is only enhenced by newer members of the Canadian (add your country's name here) family. Diversity breaths life into this country all the time, and always has.
But we have to strive to meet in the middle somewhere. I have to realize that an adult who tries to speak english or french in Quebec and other french parts of Canada, is doing his/her best ect... I have to be patient with my new family members. But they have to try!!!!! I am tired of (in this country) apologizing for being a majority (even worse white MALE).
I want a multicultural family based on a mixture of the Canadian Mosaic (isn't working) and the American Mixing Bowl (isn't working). A little bit of pride of lineage and sharing of cultures would make us all better if we were all willing to share our own as Canadians, and learn each other's as Canadians, and do our best to hold up the values of the country, and only add to those better and better ones. I accept that being Canadian means ever expanding populations from around the globe. But so many seem to forget that my Grandfather, Great Grandfather, and Great Great Grandfather, fought and died with 10s of 1000s of others so that there would be a country to flock to. So be grateful of them, and of the country, whether you were born here, or arrived recently, or a generation ago. This country will only ever be as good as it's people. I'd hate to see the country torn apart because none of us were willing to embrace it, the old and the new.

So here's my pet peeve. In Toronto there are 11 or so channels designed for cultures from other countries. Most are on cable, but a few come with my basic cable (80 channels) package along with channels like History, A&E, and Discovery. Either way, I'm not offended by the channels. I'd want news in English ect... if I was to move to say Guam. But @#$n it, put in English sub-titles!!! How am I going to understand you and your culture if you don't share it with me?!!
That's my pet peeve.

Despise:
White Stereotypes
Black Stereotypes
Native Stereotypes
Asian Stereotypes
East European Stereotypes
Cliques
Classes
Anyone who sells themselves so short as to need a group to define themselves to themselves
(you know where I'm going)

Love:
White people
Black people
Asians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Seseme St Characters, French Vanilla Icecream, Europeans, and anyone else who smiles at me and gives me the time of day ect.... (you get the point)

All my friends are just people that I know and dig. I don't think of them as a nationally at all, not even as Canadian (though many are Americans) though I respect where they come from, and enjoy when they cook for me.

Love to see:
More people sharing themselves with their new country brothers and sisters, both those born here, and those who come here, and those who've been here the longest. Then we can maybe learn to do it globally, but for now I'm thinking a bit more locally, and would be amazed if even that came true. But I hope... I definetly hope. What's the point if you don't hope?

Hope I didn't come off to preachy.

P.S. If you read this and have decided I'm racist, either read it again for it's true meaning, or don't bother PMing me, cause you're wrong and ooops, likely a stereotype.

Edited by dcornel, 23 May 2007 - 09:05 PM.

[Trainman 2000]

Wow, that was a long post... but seriously, a lot of people in my school purposely act stereotypical

[dcornel]

Yup

[ZeRoSkIlL]

Bigbear: Yeah, it's totally a two way street, but it just worries me. I never even see the Asians conversing with other Asian neighbors, either. There's only two families that sort of "hang out" with each other, worth noticing.

You also talking about visiting, which is a whole different story than migrating/living. If people are looking for long-term settlement, don't you think they should at the least, make an attempt to adapt to American culture? Maybe just accepting a few American values?

Sambo: Those sound like some pretty fantastic neighbors! However, no one around my area, any race, is like that. I take frequent walks/runs and the most I see is people mowing grass on Saturdays, walking dogs, or walking strollers. No one talks to each other, not even a "hello" when they pass by.

However, I hang out with all my friends from my class in my neighborhood. We play basketball, soccer, or just hang out at the street corner. Granted, that's just a few kids.


===

That's my two cents, I didn't want anyone to get any idea of me being racist or derogatory...

I think I opened a can of worms on that one, my bad.

- Z

Edited by ZeRoSkIlL, 24 May 2007 - 09:24 PM.

[Trainman 2000]

I don't really get out much, but as far as I know, we have a quite diverse neighborhood.

[Emergo]

Flip-flops are sandals, they are usually flat bottom shoes with a single strap that cover just above your toes and attaches to the side and in between the big toe and second toe.

^
Thanks for the clear explanation of the flip-flops, Zero!., I recognise them really well, they were the things that my parents did not allow me to wear when I was a little girl, because "this plastic rubbish is a murderer to the feet". Lol, when I went to Uni and was living on my own I took revenge by wearing them day and night,(until more fashionable as well as comfortable things took over )

Zeroskill: As for the linguistic comment, I agree with you - 100%. I believe that the citizens are fed up with all the people taking their jobs, and not making any effort to communicate

.

^ Might be my English....but....eh...I don't think "we" agree - 100%.
I never said nor thought that "citizens" (who are they then, as I take it that also in your country many immigrants are "citizens" by now, just like here, and where you and me are citizens, and where many new immigrants also are citizens...) are fed up with "all the people are taking their jobs" (which people and why so...?), and I never tried to express that "they" (whom?) are fed up by "them" (who?) not making any effort to communicate.....who then is "we" and who then don't try to communicate...

Wow, much too complicated sentences, think I need Wagi to help me explain this

But anyhow, what I mean is that I don't believe in "we" and "they", just let's try all we can on making this world a great place/space to live in together, and with each other, and realise that to achieve it everyone, including me and you, is as much responsible for that as anyone else.......and that it is by far not fair (imo) to just think that "we" did everything, and that "they" are just not doing what you want/expect from "them"........

Emergo