246 replies to this topic

[Buckeye Becky]

Well, I have 4 weeks to think about it.  I've got to use every spare moment the next three weeks to pack up my house, then a couple of days of loading and unloading a truck and another week of just unpacking. 

Clarifying for you...you mean 4 weeks to think about it...and another 4 to build it? Because the entries are not due until January 29...so no need to fret just yet.

I think to make this a more interesting contest the next time around, the rules should state an exact number of cells to build so that we are all on the same playing field.

I think the interesting part IS that not everyone is building the same amount of cells....its part of the challenge

Edited by Buckeye Becky, 25 November 2005 - 04:23 PM.

[Emergo]

Emergo, one last thing....
How do I do this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Coastercrew, thanks a lot for sharing all your experiences here!

Many things about the flow and behaviour of the peeps in your story I recognise very well, so I was not the only one getting this kind of "outcome".
To me it seems a near-to impossible task to make nine cells and still make the park work well. With some tricks it could be working relatively fine during the first 2 gameyears, but then and certainly after the 3rd year, the big problems start. (before that they might get lost or want home, but it was not so much that it influenced the quality very much) So, it all depends a bit on how long the judges will take the time to judge the parks!!! Just 2 years?, then most parks will still work fine.
When they take the time to test each park during, say, 4 gameyears, yeahh.... then the really working ones will separate themselves from the ones that collapse completely after the 3rd gameyear!!! And on the results, together with your story now, I dare to do a good bet on the fact that: the more cells, the sooner the park will collapse, unless there are escape-paths from most or every cell, only then the first cell will become overfull and the coaster in the last cell will hardly produce anyone that still rides it!! So another reason to say "this park does not very well conform the rules"

And how you do the testing, setting the alarm, and do other things in between??

Well, make sure you have a long weekend off, make your testgames, and as every playing-year in RCT2 takes about an hour, set your alarm till over 2 hours if you test for 2 years, or till over 3 hours if you want to test 3 gameyears, set the game to play, do whatever you want in the meantime and return to RCT2 (if it runs in the background) or run back to your comp if you are doing other things, when the alarm goes, and save the game. To explore it immediately or just later (give it a very recognisable name in the save so that you still know which one you are checking ).


Good luck with your moving houses (I always hated that!) and also lots of luck and fun with these cells! Very curious to see what it will become finally!!

[coastercrew]

Well, make sure you have a long weekend off, make your testgames, and as every playing-year in RCT2 takes about an hour, set your alarm till over 2 hours if you test for 2 years, ....

What is "your alarm"? Is there a way to tell Winblows to run an app or process for a specified amount of time or does RCT2 have some sort of game option or is this alarm part of a trainer?

To me it seems a near-to impossible task to make nine cells and still make the park work well. With some tricks it could be working relatively fine during the first 2 gameyears, but then and certainly after the 3rd year, the big problems start. (before that they might get lost or want home, but it was not so much that it influenced the quality very much) So, it all depends a bit on how long the judges will take the time to judge the parks!!! Just 2 years?, then most parks will still work fine.

I'm sure that CS did not have a very sophisticated AI algorithm in RCT1/2 for the generation of peep "wants". Knowing what I know about the game play, I have observed some limited "pre-requisites" for some percentage of peeps in determining their particular "wants" as game play progresses.

I'm guessing here that a certain percentage of guests come into the park not having any "pre-requisites" and being all things mostly equal, a peep will have a 1-in-N chance of "wanting" to ride the coaster in cell 1 first (where "N" is the number of cells). Based on our findings so far, it sounds like these peeps desparately search for "that coaster in their head" and after a few years of exhaustingly searching, finally give up and start trashing the place.

Those other guests that need a "pre-requisite" in all likelyhood, propably start displaying similar behavior after being "satified" on the first coaster and begin demonstrating this behavior (desparately search for "that coaster in their head") in cell 2.

And maybe just maybe CS might have put in a tad bit more AI that you might be able to delay this behavior until at most cell 3.

Given these likely assumptions and the fact that I could meet the guests' "pre-requisites", I could approximate the probability of guest "Joe B" riding all of my coasters as:

No pre-requisite: 1/N! (where "N!" is "N factorial" and "N" is the number of cells)

One pre-requisite: 1/(N-1)!

Two pre-requisites: 1/(N-2)!

Now if I simplify this even further and say that 50% of my guests will have either no or one pre-requisite and 50% will have two pre-requisites, then I could further approximate "Joe B" riding all the coasters as say: 1/(2*(N-2)!), so

Number of Cells......Probability of "Joe B" riding all the rides
------------------......----------------------------------------------
.........4......................................1/4
.........5......................................1/12
.........6......................................1/48
.........7......................................1/240
.........8......................................1/1440
.........9......................................1/10080

And these probabilities are most likely on the high side ("high" here meaning higher probability than what will actually be observed; I never added in the affect of "special" flat rides and escape paths).

So, last night I bulldozed two cells and now have 7. Which means that if I can get say 2400 guest in my park by end of year three (the year of the riot), I'll have a whopping 10 guests ride all 7 coasters!

Good thing I bulldozed two cells, otherwise I'd be looking at only 2 guests even making it to cell 9.

Once I figure out how to set this alarm, I'll be able to better confirm these assumptions.

Who knows, I could be way off? CS could have coded a much more sophisticated AI algorithm.

Written in x86 assembly for pre-'99 hw, I doubt it!

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to find out......

[Todd Lee]

The alarm is any old alarm clock or timer that you have in your house... It has nothing to do with your pc or the game.

[coastercrew]

Darn! I was hoping that a trainer could do the work for me. OK, OK, I'll have to do the manual method.

[Emergo]

^ Wow Coastercrew, you are a profound researcher too!!

Firstly, on the "alarm":
Though there are some ways to have windows run some applications during a certain time, this goes not for every application and it needs a lot of settings. For RCT I did not even bother to find out if this can be done.
So, for my tests with RCT, I simply used the most old-fashioned, home-made, but quickest way around : I simply set the alarm- clock on my oven for it (when I did not have to cook), or a simple radio with alarm-clock, just programmed it that it had to go off in the time I needed for the tests. (that's why I needed to be in the house by the time it was around the set time, meaning that when I went shopping, I knew I had to be back within 2 or 3 hours). That's why advised to have a long weekend off, preferably without much other obligations (in my case I had my old mother after an operation over in my place, so in between caring for her needs and doing some shoppings, I was homebound anyway)

In a straight line your maths seem to be perfect all the way, only I think that RCT does not work exactly in those straight lines. (must be straight lines of course, but still different from those most logical ones).

In one of the tests I did with 8 cells, after the 3rd year I still counted around 100 people coming out of the last coaster, so they had ridden all 8. ( there were around 2000 people in the park and this was without, or with just one) escape path. At the moment of counting however, park quality had dropped to zero, due to huge amounts of peeps that were stuck in any of the other cells, and hardly any to none new peeps were coming in, while as many as could were leaving the park, so the number of peeps dimished rapidly. So I guess that in the months after that (which I did not count anymore) the number that left the last coaster would decrease drastically. And all cells were cluttered up fully with sad peeps.

Another thing: if you study peeps long enough, you'll see that peeps that say "I want to go home", will stay with their thoughts, untill they can really leave. Sometimes (but rarely) they change their mind just before the park-exit, but most of them will indeed leave once they found the park-exit.

Peeps however that say "I am looking for/cannot find Coaster X", will circle around quite some time to find that one, but at a certain moment they will always change their thoughts/wishes and go do something else!!!! Like "walking", "Heading for drinks stall 3", or "queing for........ another ride/coaster" So in fact they don't severely mess up your game!

About the " prerequisite" in their minds: what I know about these is that many/most peeps are just looking/wanting to ride the coaster with the highest excitement-rating in the park. In a normal park they could go to that one right-away, but in the cell-contest of course the trick is that they cannot reach that one before haven ridden all the other coasters............

In the meantime while typing this I got a message that Todd Lee already said something on the alarm, so this one is double, but I'm posting it now anyway,


Have fun, and keep searching.......

(most intriguing contest I know up till now)

[coastercrew]

^ Wow Coastercrew, you are a profound researcher too!!

Firstly, on the "alarm":
....That's why advised to have a long weekend off, preferably without much other obligations (in my case I had my old mother after an operation over in my place, so in between caring for her needs and doing some shoppings, I was homebound anyway)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I'll be packing the next two days, so the good 'ol fashion method will work out just fine.

In a straight line your maths seem to be perfect all the way, only I think that RCT does not work exactly in those straight lines. (must be straight lines of course, but still different from those most logical ones).

I know it's not a straint line probability, I was just trying to reduce it to something of an approximation. The key point here is what you alluded to in an early post, that the probability of getting peeps to ride all coasters is not linear with the number of cells, but more of the K*1/N! (where K is some constant).

Peeps however that say "I am looking for/cannot find Coaster X", will circle around quite some time to find that one, but at a certain moment they will always change their thoughts/wishes and go do something else!!!! Like "walking", "Heading for drinks stall 3", or "queing for........ another ride/coaster" So in fact they don't severely mess up your game!

I was wondering about whether there was any AI in those peeps to get their heads unstuck. So it sounds like a certain percentage of peeps, don't get their heads unstuck until they tire out and head for the exits and the others luckily change their minds after some given time period.

About the " prerequisite" in their minds: what I know about these is that many/most peeps are just looking/wanting to ride the coaster with the highest excitement-rating in the park. In a normal park they could go to that one right-away, but in the cell-contest of course the trick is that they cannot reach that one before haven ridden all the other coasters............

I agree somewhat that the peeps want to ride the most exciting ride, but, more specifically, it's a percentage that want to ride that most exciting coaster at the moment they enter the park and the other percentage of peeps need to "warm up" their nerves (i.e. less intense; less nauseating). How many warm ups and to what degree is a good question? However, the difficult question is, how do I change their minds once they get stuck.....

If the peeps can change their mind as you say they can, then I guess I'll be looking for ways to do this......(ummmmm, I spell a nice juicy burger .....after the last bite..... OK, what coaster did I want to ride again I guess Ill just ride this one here.

[Emergo]

OK, I'll be packing the next two days, so the good 'ol fashion method will work out just fine.
I know it's not a straint line probability, I was just trying to reduce it to something of an approximation.  The key point here is what you alluded to in an early post, that the probability of getting peeps to ride all coasters is not linear with the number of cells, but more of the K*1/N! (where K is some constant).


I was wondering about whether there was any AI in those peeps to get their heads unstuck.  So it sounds like a certain percentage of peeps, don't get their heads unstuck until they tire out and head for the exits and the others luckily change their minds after some given time period. 
I agree somewhat that the peeps want to ride the most exciting ride, but, more specifically, it's a percentage that want to ride that most exciting coaster at the moment they enter the park and the other percentage of peeps need to "warm up" their nerves (i.e. less intense; less nauseating).  How many warm ups and to what degree is a good question? However, the difficult question is, how do I change their minds once they get stuck.....

If the peeps can change their mind as you say they can, then I guess I'll be looking for ways to do this......(ummmmm, I spell a nice juicy burger  .....after the last bite..... OK, what coaster did I want to ride again    I guess Ill just ride this one here. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

May be this is a nice way to make packing up more attractive!

Yes, I think you (and me ) are right about getting peeps to ride all coaster is not linear with the number of cells but certainly more of K*1/N, with K=constant!!

And you also seem right in assuming that not all peeps just want to ride the most exciting coaster, but up till now I don't have a clue to what the percentages in this case are (interesting question btw, but I do'nt know if I have time/gust to research that now, though it will be in my head from now on!)

Yeah, and to how to change their minds..... ? I am experimenting with this. I do know however, that even if you don't do anything actively to change their minds, they still change their minds. But more interesting of course is what you can do actively to change their minds as fast as possible and how to do that into the direction you want to have them
I am not yet sure how to get this effect, but I keep searching....

[coastercrew]

And you also seem right in assuming that not all peeps just want to ride the most exciting coaster, but up till now I don't have a clue to what the percentages in this case are (interesting question btw, but I do'nt know if I have time/gust to research that now, though it will be in my head from now on!)

OK, in between boxes this past weekend, I did have time to do more investigating.

I wanted to know why peeps were getting specific coasters "stuck in their heads" for what they wanted to ride and in my 9 cell park only 4 coaster seem to come up. I opened up my 9 cell park again with all cells opened, but no flat rides in cells 5-9.

As the park filled up, I opened up the 'Accumulated Guest Thoughts' window and clicked on the various guests that were thinking "I can't find coaster such-and-such".

I sampled 4 peeps each from the four groups of peeps that had coasters "stuck in their heads".

Here's what I found:

The four coasters, KJ, LL, ST, and GR were in cells 4, 7, 8, 9, respectively.

The columns 'I' and 'N' below are the Peep's Intensity and Nauseating ratings, repsectively.


+------+--------+---------+------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
|------|____ Coaster Ratings ____| Peep 1 _| Peep 2 _| Peep 3 _| Peep 4 _|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|Coastr| Excite | Intnsty | Naus |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ KJ _|_ high _|__ med __|_ med | 2-5| avg| 1-4| avg| 2-5|none| 1-4|high|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ LL _|_ high _|_ high __|_ med | 3-6|high| 2-5|high| 3-6| avg| 3-6|high|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ ST _|_ high _|_ high __| high | >4 | low| >4 | avg| >4 | avg| >4 | avg|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ GR _|_ high _|_ high __| high | >4 |high| >4 |high| >4 |high| >4 |high|
+------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+


I'll let you intepret the results on your own, but I made the appropriate adjustments and the number of guests making it further into my park per the same unit of time has increased!

Yeah, and to how to change their minds..... ? I am experimenting with this. I do know however, that even if you don't do anything actively to change their minds, they still change their minds. But more interesting of course is what you can do actively to change their minds as fast as possible and how to do that into the direction you want to have them
I am not yet sure how to get this effect, but I keep searching....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did not do any investigating into this area, but I do have several ideas. This aspect will propably require running the park over and over and tweeking the layout.

I'm hoping to make enough adjustments, so that I can reach year 4 or 5 before my park rating goes down the tubes and also be able to get an acceptable number of peeps into the last cells. Then I'll be happy!

[Emergo]

[quote name='coastercrew' date='Nov 29 2005, 02:06 AM']
[QUOTE]OK, in between boxes this past weekend, I did have time to do more investigating.

I wanted to know why peeps were getting specific coasters "stuck in their heads" for what they wanted to ride and in my 9 cell park only 4 coaster seem to come up. I opened up my 9 cell park again with all cells opened, but no flat rides in cells 5-9.

As the park filled up, I opened up the 'Accumulated Guest Thoughts' window and clicked on the various guests that were thinking "I can't find coaster such-and-such".

I sampled 4 peeps each from the four groups of peeps that had coasters "stuck in their heads".

Here's what I found:

The four coasters, KJ, LL, ST, and GR were in cells 4, 7, 8, 9, respectively.

The columns 'I' and 'N' below are the Peep's Intensity and Nauseating ratings, repsectively.


+------+--------+---------+------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
|------|____ Coaster Ratings ____| Peep 1 _| Peep 2 _| Peep 3 _| Peep 4 _|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|Coastr| Excite | Intnsty | Naus |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |_ I |_ N |
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ KJ _|_ high _|__ med __|_ med | 2-5| avg| 1-4| avg| 2-5|none| 1-4|high|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ LL _|_ high _|_ high __|_ med | 3-6|high| 2-5|high| 3-6| avg| 3-6|high|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ ST _|_ high _|_ high __| high | >4 | low| >4 | avg| >4 | avg| >4 | avg|
|------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
|_ GR _|_ high _|_ high __| high | >4 |high| >4 |high| >4 |high| >4 |high|
+------+--------+---------+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+


I'll let you intepret the results on your own, but I made the appropriate adjustments and the number of guests making it further into my park per the same unit of time has increased! [/QUOTE]


^Very good research Coastercrew!!!
Thanks a lot for sharing it.
I have not really done research on this yet, but it confirms exactly what I thought
about it. (hope you did not have to completely rebuild your coasters )


[QUOTE]I did not do any investigating into this area, but I do have several ideas. This aspect will propably require running the park over and over and tweeking the layout.[/QUOTE]

^ yeah, that is true!! And be carefull: when you seem to have a layout that works, the changing of just one pathtile , or adding one shop, can change the whole behaviour!


[QUOTE]I'm hoping to make enough adjustments, so that I can reach year 4 or 5 before my park rating goes down the tubes and also be able to get an acceptable number of peeps into the last cells. Then I'll be happy! [/QUOTE]



^ Wishing your dream comes true.......